12 OCTOBER 1940

The Czech national committee of Bombay published a pamphlet on the oppressive rules instituted by Germany in Czechoslovakia against university education. The Mother brought a copy of it to Sri Aurobindo in the morning

SRI AUROBINDO (after breakfast): Those who think that Hitler's rule in India won't make much difference from the British, can read it. Then they will see why I support the British. But this is only one example of their oppression, directed only against the university.

PURANI: I have read it. Jallianwalla Bagh seems only a small incident by its side and that was committed by a single man who was afterwards compelled to retire from his office.

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, that was an instance of a military commander doing something on his own authority, while here it is a regime. Wherever Hitler goes, he starts that regime.

NIRODBARAN: If he could be so brutal with his own white race, what will be the fate of the coloured races?

SRI AUROBINDO: Quite so. But in Poland it is still more severe.

NIRODBARAN: Why?

SRI AUROBINDO: Because he knows the Polish people are more resistant and won't be subjugated. At one time he thought of exterminating the Poles wholesale.

PURANI: The Polish lady who wrote to Ravindra has come back from Europe. She says she has first-hand knowledge of the condition

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in Poland - about what Germany has done. She prays to you for Poland's amelioration.

SRI AUROBINDO: Poland's amelioration is not possible unless Hitler undergoes deterioration.

PURANI: Hitler's entry into Rumania seems to be his first step towards the Balkans.

SRI AUROBINDO: It is, like all his moves, a slow penetration from which he may go to Turkey, Egypt and Asia. What is wonderful is Stalin's attitude. He is quite silent.

NIRODBARAN: Any secret pact?

SRI AUROBINDO: Even if there were, how long would Hitler respect it if he won? Then Russia would have either to resist or be effaced. Stalin is counting on the exhaustion of the Axis and England and France. Now if Hitler takes Turkey and Egypt and Africa, that will mean practically England's defeat. Then what can Russia do? Hitler has a sufficient army to fight on two fronts while England can hardly spare her troops.

PURANI: Japan is trying to be original: she says she wants peace with America. The three-Power pact is not against America! (Laughter)

SRI AUROBINDO: I don't see how Japan can fight England and America when all her war supplies come from them. That is also why Spain can't join Germany.

PURANI: N. R. Sarkar has given a lecture in Madura against non-violence. He says non-violence can't prevent invasion by another power.

SRI AUROBINDO: That is my opinion too. I don't see how Satyagraha can prevent it, or does Gandhi expect that Hitler won't come to India? Hasn't he read anything about Poland?

PURANI: He must have. This Polish lady who was there must have told him. Gandhi says he does not know himself what would be the exact method. He waits for inspiration at the last moment as in all his other cases. He also says that generals don't know their moves beforehand. They wait for inspiration calmly and quietly. In violence one can't be quiet. Gandhi is disturbed by the incidents, etc.

SRI AUROBINDO: Generals get excited by violence? If so, they could never win battles. Gandhi doesn't seem to know much about human psychology. If Napoleon and Marlborough had got excited they could never have been successful.

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SATYENDRA: Gandhi doesn't say he can stop an invasion but he says that non-violent non-cooperation can make it impossible for one to rule.

SRI AUROBINDO: That is another matter.

SATYENDRA: If done rightly it can melt other people's hearts as with Prahlad, he says.

SRI AUROBINDO: Prahlad is all right, but a nation of Prahlads doesn't exist. (Laughter)

SATYENDRA: He actually believes that Narsimha will come down.

SRI AUROBINDO (laughing): To tear the stomach out of the other fellow?

SATYENDRA (laughing): Yes.

SRI AUROBINDO: But at one time he thought of stopping an Afghan invasion by Charkha.

SATYENDRA: In my opinion he should have kept aloof after that Poona affair.

SRI AUROBINDO: Quite so. Gandhi's originality lies in bringing Ahimsa into politics. Otherwise non-cooperation is nothing new.

EVENING

NIRODBARAN: Tagore is having a relapse again and passing restless nights.

SRI AUROBINDO: This time it is difficult to escape, it seems, in spite of Gandhi's wish.

NIRODBARAN: I read the Czech pamphlet.

SRI AUROBINDO: How did you find it?

NIRODBARAN: Terrible!

SRI AUROBINDO: Would you like India to have that?

NIRODBARAN: OLord, no! I was thinking the Jallianwalla Bagh affair was mild beside this.

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, I was wondering why they made so much noise about it.

Dr. Rao had come in the morning. Nirodbaran asked him: "What does Madras think of Hitler? It seems it is anti-British." Rao said plenty of people were much surprised by Sri Aurobindo's contribution and were wondering how it was possible for Sri Aurobindo, who once had been so anti-British, to do such a thing. But there were others who supported Sri

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Aurobindo. Then Sri Aurobindo explained to Rao at great length all the points and sides of the question, most of which he had mentioned in the letter. We saw that he repeated all of them deliberately, so that Rao might speak of them to others if the occasion arose. What is not included in the letter is given below.

SRI AUROBINDO: In Africa, the Germans have already exterminated one race. Now in France they are creating a distinction between white and coloured races which didn't exist before. It is only the British navy that stands against Hitler's world domination.

DR. RAO: I don't believe that he can dominate the world.

SRI AUROBINDO: Do you know that he is trying to get a foothold in South America and doing extensive propaganda there? If he gets a hold there, he can lead an attack against the U.S.A. He is practically master of Europe. If after the collapse of France he had invaded England, by now he would have been in Asia. Now another force has been set up against him. Still the danger has not passed. He has a fifty per cent chance of success. It is a question of balance of forces. Up to the time of the collapse of France he was extraordinarily successful because he sided with the Asuric Power behind him from whom he received remarkably correct messages. He is a mystic, only a mystic of the wrong kind. He goes into solitude for his messages and waits till they come.

DR. RAO: But how long can he keep these races in subjection? They will rise in revolt one day.

SRI AUROBINDO: What about Poland and Czechoslovakia? They are two of the most heroic nations in the world and yet what can they do? Besides, Hitler doesn't want to annex all these countries under direct German rule. He wants to make them protectorates under his gauleiters, all schools, institutions, industries serving German interests and having its culture.

DR. RAO: What is the difference between communism and Nazism?

SRI AUROBINDO: Communism is the proletariat State — no dictatorship, though Stalin is a dictator but he doesn't call himself that. Otherwise they are the same.

DR. RAO: The trouble in India is that the British Government has not kept a single promise so far. So nobody trusts it.

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SRI AUROBINDO: The fact is that the British don't trust India help them if she is given Dominion Status. Otherwise they would have given it.

DR. RAO: I don't think India will refuse to help if we get something in return.

SRI AUROBINDO: You think so? I am not sure. What do you think of the left-wingers, the communists, Subhas Bose, for instance? And it is not true that they have given nothing. It is the British character to go by stages. Whenever their self-interest is at stake they come to a compromise. You have to take account of things as they are. They gave provincial autonomy and didn't exercise any veto power. It is the Congress that spoiled everything by resigning. If without resigning they had put pressure on the Centre they would have got by now what they want. It is for two reasons I support the British in this war: first in India's own Interest and secondly for humanity's sake, and the reasons I have given are external reasons; there are spiritual reasons too. You know that propaganda of any kind is allowed by the Nazis. In that case how are you going to awaken the national sentiment?

DR. RAO: Even if Hitler wins, there is Japan who will resist him in the East.

SRI AUROBINDO: But is Japan powerful enough to do that? It is true that Japan wants to drive out all Europeans from Asia. She can have enough power for that only if she is master of the Far East including China.

DR. RAO: People say that the British won't allow the loss of India. If it comes to that, they will make peace. (Laughter)

SRI AUROBINDO: They said also that Britain wouldn't fight after the collapse of France.

PURANI: But why should Hitler make such a peace if he finds that he has chances of success? The trouble with us is that we wan cut off our nose to spite another's face.

SRI AUROBINDO: No, we call in a third party to cut off our nose to spite the other's face. (Laughter) India has always done that.

DR. RAO: If Hitler is defeated and they make another treaty of Versailles, there will be trouble again.

SRI AUROBINDO: But if they don't do that there will be another war in twenty years' time. Something has to be done.

PURANI: The best thing would be to march into Germany as they wanted to do in the last war.

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DR. RAO: People in Madras regard Italy as no more considerate than Germany.

PURANI: For that reason Egypt has not declared war, they say.

SRI AUROBINDO: No, it is said that the British are holding her back. But do you know that the Italians have exterminated half the native people in Libya? Whatever independence England has given the Egyptians, they will lose if Italy comes there. Are they so foolish as not to know that? The Arabs know the Italians very well. Hence they are completely supporting Britain though they were fighting with her before.

13 OCTOBER 1940

SRI AUROBINDO: Any news about the Congress decision or is Gandhi going to ponder for another two years till the war is over and the Satyayuga comes in? (Laughter)

PURANI: Azad has said that there is no going back on the Bombay decision.

SRI AUROBINDO: That is all right, but what are they going to do?

PURANI: It seems Gandhi has prepared a scheme which he is going to submit to the Working Committee. It may be something like what he has advised in Hyderabad, which you may have seen — only four persons selected to go to jail and, if they are released, they will go again.

SRI AUROBINDO: But how will that redress their grievances? And will they call a meeting?

PURANI: They will have to.

SRI AUROBINDO: Then it will no longer be individual. Or they can go to Sir Akbar and sit in his bedroom and refuse to move till their demands are acceded to. (Laughter)

PURANI: If they call a meeting, the police may try to break it up.

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, and then some sort of violence is inevitable. That is about the State. What about Congress? If it is something like their Salt Campaign, one can understand.

PURANI: The same procedure, I suppose: individual Satyagrahis are calling a meeting. The meeting may be banned by the Government, then there may be some riot.

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SRI AUROBINDO: In that case a riot is inevitable. Gandhi is balancing on a pinpoint.

EVENING

PURANI: Hitler's intention seems to be to launch an attack in the East.

SRI AUROBINDO: Not only that. He wants to control the oil fields in Asia Minor on which the British depend.

Turkey says Germany will have two million bayonets to face to get to Anatolia. Somebody says that, though Turkey has no mechanised army, it is not very necessary because the country is not suited for mechanised units. So Germany won't be very effective. I am not so sure of that. It may be difficult — that's all. Such things were said by France, and Belgium too.

PURANI: In Bankim's "Bande Mataram" there are two versions of the line ke bale ma tumi abala.¹ I don't remember the other version. Nolini wants to know which version you want to keep.

SRI AUROBINDO: But I have translated the original version only.

NIRODBARAN: The other version is abala keno ma eto bale.²

SRI AUROBINDO: Eto bale! Oh, that is for grammar: abala being feminine, one can't say abale; all the same abala keno ma... bale is not good. It is better to be ungrammatical than to miss the point. Bankim surely knew about the grammatical error.

14 OCTOBER 1940

PURANI: Gandhi speaks of a premonition of a fast.

SRI AUROBINDO: Good Lord!

PURANI: In reply to Malaviya who had asked him not to fast whatever else he might do, Gandhi said that if he was inspired by God, he might or must.

SRI AUROBINDO: The British Government ought to set up somebody to fast against him — (laughter) not to give up his fast till Gandhi stops.

¹Who says, Mother, that you are weak?

²Being so strong, how are you so weak?

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NIRODBARAN: Linlithgow is returning, it seems.

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes.

PURANI: They talk of Samuel Hoare as the successor to Linlithgow. In the Indian Express there is a cartoon showing Hoare as a rabbit being stewed in his own juice. (Laughter)

SRI AUROBINDO: He is needed in Spain. Lothian would have been the best choice. But he is also much needed in America.

15 OCTOBER 1940

NIRODBARAN: Have you read Gandhi's article? He says there is nothing much to choose between British rule and Nazism.

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, I have read it. Let him be under the Nazis and then he will realise the difference.

PURANI: Amarnath Jha has given a speech in South India. He says that this is not the time for non-violence. One can make a righteous war. Non-violence very often is a cloak for cowardice.

SRI AUROBINDO: Cowardice? One can't say that. Non-violent resistance can't be cowardice.You can say that non-violence may lead to cowardice on the pretext of non-resistance.

PURANI: Yes, simply out of fear of resistance people will take up an attitude of non-violence. That was why a prominent leader of Congress once said in a speech, "I prefer non-violence but if you can't accept it, at least don't sit quiet in times of trouble or danger. Do something." To this Gandhi took objection.

SRI AUROBINDO: Why? He has said that himself many times.

SATYENDRA: Yes, only now he has taken an absolute stand.

SRI AUROBINDO: My only objection is that he wants to use non-violence as a ramrod; it is not practicable under present circumstances. Individual Satyagraha may be possible because some individuals have reached that stage of evolution but as a wholesale mass movement it is not practicable. He muddles the whole thing by bringing it into politics. As a prophet of non-violence, he can practise it as a movement of ethical affirmation, a demand of the soul.

SATYENDRA: Yes, if he had led some such sort of movement with people who could strictly follow him, there would have been nothing to say. From that viewpoint, his retirement from politics after the Poona affair was the right move.

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SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, it was the right thing.

SATYENDRA: But people drag him in, foist on him the leadership of the country.

NIRODBARAN: But doesn't Gandhi himself have the idea of saving India politically too? Then why should we blame others or can we say that the leadership has been foisted on him?

SRI AUROBINDO: Oh, not only saving India but the whole world. The leadership was foisted on him as people were feeling helpless without his guidance.

SATYENDRA: That is why I blame these people more. Why don't they take the leadership?

PURANI: I think C. R. could have done something with the Viceroy if it had been left to him.

SATYENDRA: Why doesn't he do it then? He got his opportunity after the Poona affair.

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, but he is not the leader and he couldn't go to see the Viceroy as the leader.

SATYENDRA: He can stand against Gandhiji and lead the movement.

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. But Gandhi's hold is too strong for him. Moreover, when these people are face to face with difficulties they feel themselves weak. Unlike the revolutionaries they have not got the strength to start a movement and lead it. C. R. could have made some compromise with the Viceroy except for the fact that the Viceroy isn't a man for compromise. He is, as Gandhi says, unbending; he meets you with fixed decisions. Otherwise Amery's first speech went much farther; it was quite clear in what was said. But because of the Viceroy and the officials it came to nothing.

NIRODBARAN: Now Irwin could be sent as Viceroy.

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, he has the instinct for peace. Lothian or some other Labour member would have been the best. Lothian has a liberal mind.

SATYENDRA: It is the officials mostly that stand in the way.

NIRODBARAN: That is why some suggested that Amery should pay a personal visit.

SRI AUROBINDO: That won't be of any use. Amery is not the man. Of course one has to take account of Indian officials for any advancement unless one is so strong as to do something over the heads of these people.

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PURANI: It seems there is disagreement in the Working Committee about the procedure. Some don't agree with Gandhi in wanting to inform the Government of their move beforehand. But Gandhi wants to keep them informed.

SRI AUROBINDO: He wants to assert the right of free speech. And according to his ideal of Satyagraha he is quite right. His followers take it up as a political move.

SATYENDRA: Yes, that is the trouble. Their standpoints and outlooks are quite different. Somehow I understand Gandhiji in these principles for which he stands. The only thing, as we said, is that he should have kept himself apart from politics.

PURANI: Another trouble with Gandhi is that he says that no man can be perfect unless the society around him is perfect.

SRI AUROBINDO: In that case, like Amitabha Buddha refusing to go to Nirvana till all have attained it, he will have to wait till eternity for perfection! (Laughter)

SATYENDRA: He thinks his life is bound up with the national life, so he can't sever himself from the nation.

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, his life is bound up but the national life is not bound up with him — that is the trouble. Hence wholesale non-violence is not possible. He should have gone to Denmark when they wanted to adopt non-violence, though their non-violence was for a different reason, because they saw that a small army is of no use against greater powers.

SATYENDRA: Gandhiji's non-violence is of course of a different type. You offer resistance non-violently and the enemy may pass over your dead body!

SRI AUROBINDO: Somebody in England gave the same suggestion. Hitler will regret that nobody accepted it.

PURANI : Japan declares she will help the Axis in case of reverses.

SRI AUROBINDO: By telegrams?

This Japan-China war seems to be interminable; each claims big successes and yet it comes to nothing. The same with the other war.

PURANI: Yes, only air raids!

Nandalal Base's picture of Durga in the Puja number of the Hindustan Standard was shown to Sri Aurobindo.

SRI AUROBINDO: It seems to be post-Ajanta decorative style. Lion stylised, peacock in front of the lion, Kartik humorous.

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EVENING

PURANI : Gandhara art is supposed to be a mixture of Greek and Indian art. More of Greek influence than Indian.

SRI AUROBINDO: What Gandhara representations I have seen seem to me to be spoiled by Central Asian influence and then bungled by Indian. It is more Central Asian than Greek — it is an imitation of Greece without its mastery, as is the case with all imitation.

16 OCTOBER 1940

Purani started the talk about one Mr. Chevalier, a friend of Dr. Ramchandra, who had arrived here. He seems to have said that Dr. Ramchandra was much changed. Satyendra and Champaklal corroborated the observation. But Purani said that he had heard also some things against Dr. Ramchandra — for instance, his gardening and gardening all the time! Then there was talk that both Suren and Dr. Ramchandra were much relieved because Suren had moved to a new house.

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, Suren has been wanting to move for a long time, and Ramchandra said that it would be difficult to check his violence if Suren was not removed.

SATYENDRA: But I see much change in him now. Of course many things turn up here from our old nature. For instance, I find in myself things that I didn't suspect existed in me. That is, perhaps, due to some special working in the Inconscient at present.

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, many people have said that to me. It is what the psychoanalysis put so much weight upon. They call it suppression and its later effect.

SATYENDRA: But everything is not suppression.

NIRODBARAN: You said before that the work was going on in the subconscient.

SRI AUROBINDO: It is the same; it is the rising up of the subconscient from the Inconscient.

NIRODBARAN: Has everybody such dark elements in the Inconscient?

SRI AUROBINDO: There is a possibility, though they may not be manifested in a formed state, etc.?

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SATYENDRA: When the subconscient rises up, it seems there is no end to it. It keeps recurring. One doesn't know how to get rid of the cycle. It is something terrible.

SRI AUROBINDO: Mind and the vital are easy to change. It is these three, the physical, the subconscient and the Inconscient, that are most difficult.

EVENING

Gandhi has elaborated his campaign of Satyagraha and elected Mr. Vinoba Bhave as the candidate to start it.

PURANI: I read that Gandhi thought of making Vinoba Prime Minister in place of Kher.

SRI AUROBINDO: No, not Kher but Dr. Khare from Central Province.

PURANI: Good Lord! I would like to see how Vinoba would carry on even for a week.

SRI AUROBINDO: He would have advised fasting a week for purification.

Purani then gave a description of Vinoba. Gandhi has elaborated on his science of fasting, saying that it is a dangerous weapon and nobody should undertake one without being a master of its technique. Then he said that his Rajkot fast was a mistake.

SRI AUROBINDO: I thought it was inspired by God!

PURANI: Yes, but in its application he committed mistakes; for instance, he shouldn't have asked the Viceroy to intervene since he considered the Prince as his son. It seems he has selected Nehru as the second candidate after Bhave.

SRI AUROBINDO: Nehru is not scientific — an anticlimax!

NIRODBARAN: No news of Tagore!

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, he is getting better. Something strange about him: when you think he is getting better, he suddenly begins to die and when you think he is dying he gets better. (Laughter)

PURANI: You have read about a Polish ship escaping from Dakar almost miraculously through a ring of submarines, warships, etc.?

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SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. That's the true Pole — you can't subjugate the race. By the way, have you marked the "damages and casualties" in Bombay from the cyclone?

PURANI: Yes.

SRI AUROBINDO: They are all speaking about it in terms of war as if there had been some air raid. (Laughter)

17 OCTOBER 1940

PURANI : Gandhi gave a long introduction about Vinoba, saying he is the most fitted and ideal non-violent worker, one who has understood and practised his non-violence in the true spirit. Vinoba declares that non-violence will bring about a revolution in the country.

SRI AUROBINDO: Why speeches then?

PURANI: They will be a preparation for successful non-cooperation. He also says the Charkha will bring contentment to people and to the peasants by making them self-supporting.

SRI AUROBINDO: Then how can there be a revolution? Discontent brings about a revolution.

PURANI: He has also read Arabic in order to understand and make common ties and sympathies with the Muslims. He has written a book making the Charkha the central subject, taking spinning, cotton, etc. as various items, and written about the history, geography and science of it.

SRI AUROBINDO: Why the Charkha then? One can write as well on nails! That is the kind of intelligence which looks at things from one aspect only - a one-eyed intelligence can't take a complete view of a subject.

PURANI: Declaring Britain's war-aims, Churchill has said that they are not fighting for the status quo nor for the old order of things. More than that it is not possible to say.

SATYENDRA: He says that the only war aim now is to win the war.

SRI AUROBINDO: Quite so. If he starts declaring the war aims, a quarrel will start at once and those who are supporting Britain will object. For war aims don't depend on Britain alone but on Europe too. With the co-operation and consent of all these other nations they have to be developed. Different people will prefer different

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orders. For instance, the Socialists in England will want Socialism, while no one in Europe will agree to that, not even anyone in America.

NIRODBARAN: There is Satish Das Gupta in Bengal, another lieutenant of Gandhi.

PURANI: His is more of a personal attachment to Gandhi.

SRI AUROBINDO: Not because of Gandhi's ideas?

PURANI: Ideas are secondary; he is a lieutenant because of his attachment. The main thing is his personal attachment apart from any ideas.

SRI AUROBINDO: Religious devotion?

PURANI: Yes.

SATYENDRA: There are many people like that who are attached to Gandhiji because of his personal charm, his personality, not because of any idea or principle he stands for. Patel, for instance.

SRI AUROBINDO: Has none gone for his ideas?

SATYENDRA: I don't think so. It is as things are here. There are not many people here who have come for your philosophy.

SRI AUROBINDO: Why "not many"? Very few.

SATYENDRA: That was my tactfulness.

SRI AUROBINDO: Nirod didn't come for my philosophy!

NIRODBARAN: No!

SATYENDRA: Amrita, for instance, says that whatever you say he will do. If politics, then politics.

SRI AUROBINDO: There is only one man who has come for my philosophy — Veerabhadra! (Laughter)

PURANI : Yes, he has his own idea about it and says it is just like Shankara's.

SRI AUROBINDO: Dilip used to shudder at the idea of the Supermind. Even the psychic used to appal him.

NIRODBARAN: Though what he is aspiring for is this psychic attitude of Bhakti.

SRI AUROBINDO: He thinks the psychic has no love and emotion. What he was afraid of was that his vital movements would be taken away.

NIRODBARAN: Mahendra Sircar also came for your philosophy.

PURANI: Adwaitanand, too. Of course, such people are very few.

SATYENDRA: Very few people have any clear idea about it.

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SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. I am not speaking of those who come for Yoga. What about Veerabhadra? Where is he now?

PURANI: In the town. I suppose the Vaishya Sabha is putting him up.

SRI AUROBINDO: He ought not to have any difficulty as he is a Brahmin.

PURANI: Yes, a Brahmin in South India is honoured everywhere.

SRI AUROBINDO: And he has many disciples here. If he had the gerua (the saffron robe) he would have still more advantage.

NIRODBARAN: But in Bengal he would have a hard time.

SATYENDRA: Why?

NIRODBARAN: In Bengal Sannyasis are not held in much esteem.

SRI AUROBINDO: Bengal has Deshpande's idea, I suppose. I remember when Deshpande returned from England some Sannyasis came to him. He drove them away, asking why able-bodied people should go about from door to door.

SATYENDRA: But in any other part of India a Sannyasi has no difficulty. Purnananda speaks very lovingly of a warm reception in Gujarat.

NIRODBARAN: He says Bengali Sannyasis are not treated well in North India by North Indian Sannyasis. "As the Bengalis don't treat us well, why should we treat them well?" they argue. There is himsa (jealousy) among sadhus too!

CHAMPAKLAL: Jain Sadhus beat each other!

SRI AUROBINDO: That is not unusual, quite ancient. There are funny stories in old Buddhist books about Sannyasis. In some books the Sannyasis are described as drinking and shouting in the streets. Subramaniam Bharati told me that in old Jain books he had found instances of Brahmins killing each other in South India and eating cow's meat! Nobody will believe it now.

PURANI: No!

SRI AUROBINDO: Brahmins eating meat goes as far back as the Ramayana. There is the story of Batapi, a Rakshasa, who alongwith his brother wanted to kill Brahmins. He turned himself into a sheep which was killed and eaten by a Brahmin. Then his brother came and chanted some mantra by which the sheep inside tore open the Brahmin's stomach and came out. He tried to play the same trick on

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Agastya. But as soon as his brother chanted the mantra, Agastya chanted some other mantra and thus prevented the sheep from. tearing open his stomach. (Laughter)

Then there is the story in Bhavabhuti where Vasishtha ate a whole sheep in front of his disciples. The disciples exclaimed, "That fellow is eating the whole sheep!"

SATYENDRA: They must have wondered at his digestive capacity.

SRI AUROBINDO: No, it was not said in praise! .

NIRODBARAN: The digestive power must have deteriorated a lot among us since then!

SRI AUROBINDO: Quite so!

NIRODBARAN: Buddha couldn't digest even some pieces of pork.

PURANI: He was eighty! But it was not a sheep that Vashishtha ate; it was a cow, I think.

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, yes, a calf, I remember now. I was surprised to find a Brahmin eating a cow!

NIRODBARAN: Weren't Brahmins eating cows at one time?

SRI AUROBINDO: Oh yes, sacrificial cows.

NIRODBARAN: It was the post-Buddhistic influence that stopped meat-eating.

SRI AUROBINDO: No, it was Jainism. In Bengal where Buddhism was once very dominant they used to eat meat. It is remarkable how Jainism spread that influence throughout the whole of India. It was because of jainism that Gujarat is vegetarian. But some carry this abstinence from meat as far back as the Veda. There is a Sloka which says that meat cannot be eaten and they make it "must not" be eaten.

At the end Purani showed us a famous sculpture of Durga from Bihar. Sri Aurobindo said that it was very lively; even the posture of Durga indicated that. Then jocularly he said that one must have a divine quality to balance oneself on a lion like that.

18 OCTOBER 1940

There was miscellaneous talk about this and that. It started with the news of Vinoba's arrest. We said that Purani must be very glad of' the news. Then

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the talk was about the business capacity of different persons. There was some discord, between Vinoba and his co-worker Harkar in the Gandhi Ashram. Vinoba seems to have remarked that Harkar would not be able to earn even five rupees outside. This insult was only an additional reason to the many others for which Harkar left the Ashram with the resolve to show whether he could earn his living or not. He joined some business with our Kashibhai. Satyendra remarked that Kashibhai was a good man but had no business capacity. This led to the subject of X's capacity in business. Purani said that he had been on the point of being dismissed from the Navajeevan Office. He also had a tailoring shop which failed.

SRI AUROBINDO : Anything he touches will be a loss. He has a genius for that. He can work under somebody who will oblige him to work. Has he produced any more children?

PURANI: I don't know.

SRI AUROBINDO: He already had three. The way he was industriously working at it, he must have five or six now.

PURANI: T was complaining of the ill-health of the children.

SRI AUROBINDO: Both the parents suffer from ill-health, so their children must be like that. But such people live long.

CHAMPAKLAL: G also started some insurance business with motor cars, etc. It failed.

PURANI: He was also with Gandhi.

SRI AUROBINDO: What was he doing there?

PURANI: Harijan work.

SRI AUROBINDO : Means only talking! He is suited for that.

EVENING

SRI AUROBINDO (referring to Vinoba's arrest): The Government said that it would watch how the movement developed. But it didn't wait very long.

PURANI : Have you seen Vinoba's picture in the Hindu?

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. The only notable feature is his forehead - it is like that of a scholar. He has close-cropped hair ready for jail.

SATYENDRA: From his appearance one can make out an ascetic type.

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SRI AUROBINDO : Yes, ascetic and puritan, but a mental puritan. Not vital, because his lips indicate otherwise. Only his chin has not the necessary strength for vital indulgence.

PURANI : In spite of all his rigorous practical and routine life, his health is not strong.

SRI AUROBINDO: No, he is badly born, as we call it.

19 OCTOBER 1940

News of Vinoba's arrest has been contradicted on today's radio.

SRI AUROBINDO (to Purani): Has it been a great disappointment to you? (Laughter)

A number of visitors came from Gujarat by a special train — on a pilgrimage. Some were known or related to Satyendra. Sri Aurobindo inquired as to who they were, Purani answered that some were Satyendra's elatives.

SATYENDRA: They recognised me at once by my nose. Our family has this characteristic nose. (Laughter)

PURANI : He says that in the delineation of the gods he finds such noses!

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, but Nandalal is making them short and crooked now.

Gurusaday Dutt is on a tour of South India promoting his Vratachari folk-dance movement and is expected here as Anilbaran's guest.

PURANI: Anilbaran wants to know your opinion about Dutt's movement.

SRI AUROBINDO: I have no opinion (laughter) - as I don't know what it is.

PURANI: He asks whether you consider the movement good.

SRI AUROBINDO: Any movement could be good.

PURANI: His books have been sent to you, it seems. Have you seen them?

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, they have been sent but I have not read them.

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PURANI: It seems he wants to do social service, village uplift work through his Vratachari folk dances. According to him it is the lower castes in India that have preserved the real Indian civilisation. Even the Harijans —

SATYENDRA: Not even! It is the Harijans who are the real custodians of Indian culture.

SRI AUROBINDO: All I can say is that the Pondicherry Harijans are cleaner than caste people. (Laughter) But is he also of the opinion that whatever is primitive and ancient is real culture and so must be revived?

PURANI: Yes.

SRI AUROBINDO: Then I can't agree with him.

NIRODBARAN: He claims also a spiritual value in his movement. He says it will help towards spiritual uplift too, which Anilbaran can't swallow. There are five ideals he has set forth: knowledge, labour, unity —

SRI AUROBINDO: Knowledge very good, unity better, and then?

NIRODBARAN: Truth and joy.

SRI AUROBINDO: Joy also? Ananda, Satyam-

NIRODBARAN: Anyone who follows these in his life will have spiritual development.

SRI AUROBINDO (laughing): Obviously! I suppose it is through the rhythm of the folk dance that all these will be achieved?

PURANI: Yes.

SRI AUROBINDO: He himself took part in a dance and his I.C.S. people thought he had gone mad! But I thought it was also a scout movement, not only folk dancing.

PURANI: Yes, that is also part of it.

NIRODBARAN: Anilbaran says there is this difference from the Gandhi movement, that it includes joy and beauty.

SRI AUROBINDO: Why? Gandhi finds joy and beauty in suffering!

NIRODBARAN: Dutt is very devoted to his wife's memory, it seems. He always keeps one vacant seat by his side during his meal time. He has written a book on her too. It seems Dutt got inspiration from his wife in all these movements.

SATYENDRA: Many people are devoted like that. Dr. Chandulal, for instance. He lost his wife when young and did not marry again, He wrote a poem on her.

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SRI AUROBINDO: He can marry again and write another poem! (Laughter)

SATYENDRA: Sometimes in their devotion, external beauty of form doesn't count. In the Leila-Majnun story, somebody asked Majnun what made him love Leila so much, since Leila had no beauty. He answered that one must have Majnun's eyes to see her beauty. But I am afraid Majnun could not have done these Vratachari.

SRI AUROBINDO: Not even if Leila started it? (Laughter) A modernised Leila? You must make some allowance for modernism!

PURANI: One of the visitors is a retired D.S.P. It seems he was your student.

SRI AUROBINDO: I see!

PURANI: He says that after the war is over there will be a great economic strain all over the world. Whoever wins won't make much difference to the other economically because both sides will be utterly exhausted. He also thinks that some other social order will come in.

SRI AUROBINDO: A tremendous necessity of that sort will compel them to a new arrangement of society. It is Nature's push that they have not taken any account of so far. They can't go back to the old forms of government and state and society. If they do, there will be upheavals again. What they are calling a New Order will be forced on them by such a necessity. Hitler looks at it upside down. He wanted to make Germany self-sufficient and saw that it was not possible without making the world subservient to Germany. That means that self-sufficiency is not enough nowadays. Nobody can preserve himself by self-sufficiency alone. Unification becomes necessary. You see what Hitler's unification is?

PURANI: By compulsion!

SRI AUROBINDO: Not only compulsion but subservience to Germany!

PURANI: Italy and Germany are holding out threats to Greece; it is said Germany wants to march into Greece, after Rumania!

SRI AUROBINDO: But how? Through Yugoslavia? Is that why the Yugoslavian Prime Minister has gone to Turkey? They can march through Rumania too but it is difficult. Perhaps for a joint action Italy has held up her operations in Egypt.

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EVENING

The newspaper said that Vinoba had given three or four speeches and had made up a programme of addressing other meetings.

SRI AUROBINDO: Vinoba is having the time of his life! His speeches are so inoffensive and colourless that I don't see how anybody can arrest him. He can't change his phrases for fear of falling into violence!

PURANI: The evening papers have put in a placard like Gandhi's new movement! Don't know what that new movement is!

SRI AUROBINDO: Because Vinoba has not been arrested? Perhaps he thinks it is a crime on the Government's part not to arrest him?

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